Blankwaffen Forum (https://deutsches-waffenforum.de/index.php)
-- Blankwaffen Ausland (https://deutsches-waffenforum.de/board.php?id=5)
---- Dänemark / Norwegen (https://deutsches-waffenforum.de/board.php?id=26)
Thema: Dänemark - M1789 Reiterdegen - Holstenske Rytter Regiment (https://deutsches-waffenforum.de/topic.php?id=1947)

Geschrieben von: limone am: 12.09.09, 15:54:16
Thank you! It would be nice to see fotos of the total (grip with the original, not removed bows and "original" shell, totals of sword and scabbard and the little mark signed in the following foto. Can you give some dimensions (length ~115 cm?)?

(We're teased, you know?)

Best regards from Kassel, Germany

Carsten

Geschrieben von: Dragon am: 12.09.09, 19:14:42
Here it is with an M 1772, M 1789 and M 1785 (erstes Foto, first Picture).

Backside seen with M 1772 (zweites Foto, sekond Picture). I will have to get back to with the dimentions and C7 photo. If I recollect correctly, the M 1773 is one or two cm longer than the 115cm it says in the book.

The area that you have enciceled above is not an mark or stamp it is just an area where the brass has gotten scratched and then cleaned several times over the last 237 years, or so.

Geschrieben von: Henry Chr. am: 13.09.09, 23:27:51
Hello Dragon,
H=W=No.1013 is a peculear marking - the database for weapons in www.Vaabenhistorisk.dk includes 2 examples more: H=W=No.7 and H=W=No.24 (much lower serial numbers than yours) - both of them has reduced M1773 grips (3 bows left), and both has blade from pallask M1785 (dobble edged).

The meaning of this marking is still unknown.

Kind regards
Henry

Geschrieben von: Dragon am: 14.09.09, 15:51:07
Zitat:
Hello Dragon,
H=W=No.1013 is a peculear marking - the database for weapons in www.Vaabenhistorisk.dk includes 2 examples more: H=W=No.7 and H=W=No.24 (much lower serial numbers than yours) - both of them has reduced M1773 grips (3 bows left), and both has blade from pallask M1785 (dobble edged).

The meaning of this marking is still unknown.

Kind regards
Henry


Hello Henry,

Your information is interesting. The Pallask's you are describing is Experimental Pallask M 1789's cut down to naval hangers around 1807.

It makes sense that the hilts from the first M 1773 would have been used for the M 1789 experimental Pallask. As you probably know there was problems with the first M 1773 hilts and their production where slightly modified from 1778. Resulting in an stronger grip. Where the top and bottom part of the grip is suported with brass bands.

It would be reasonable to assume that the markings is from the period before the Pallask's you are refering to where modified.

Until an better suggestion comes up I think "H" stands for Holsten. The mystery is what the "W" stands for and the high weapons number. The two later questions also raises doubt over what the "H" stands for.

Carsten:
Zitat:
the little mark signed in the following foto.


On an second inspection I can see that the scratch mark that you pointed out is caused by the scabbard. If you take an look on the other side of the blade, you can see an similar scratch mark where the Pallask hilt is resting on the scabbard.

Geschrieben von: Henry Chr. am: 14.09.09, 16:56:00
Hej Dragon,

You have a good point about the Naval Hangers.

The enclosed photo of the 2 types of grips for the pallask M1773 and M1774 shows the differences.

I believe, that "H" is pointing towards Norway, but it is just a feeling. The known pallasks for Holsten were mainly marked H=R=R... (Holstenske Regiment Ryttere).

Some day we will know.

Kind regards
Henry

Geschrieben von: Dragon am: 14.09.09, 17:34:40
Zitat:
I believe, that "H" is pointing towards Norway, but it is just a feeling. The known pallasks for Holsten were mainly marked H=R=R... (Holstenske Regiment Ryttere).


Here is an overview over the Norwegian armys organization from 1628 - 1817:

http://da2.uib.no/haer_innled.htm

If we take an look at the Norwegian cavalry organization from 01.05.1789 - 30.06.1810. We can see that there was four Dragon Regiments in Norway. On Norwegian period arms we often see company name marked with the first letter. The companys are named after the geographical places where they where raised.

As far as I know the M 1773 was first introduced in Norway in 1788 just before Prins Carl of Hessen(commanding officer of the army in Norway at the time) Marched on Sweden with an 8.000,- man strong army crossing from Norway into Sweden. Scroll down to 1788: http://www.algonet.se/~hogman/slkrig_eng.htm#1700

The M 1773 was issued to Nordenfjeldske Dragon Regiment in preperation for the campaign in Sweden. There is no Company's that would fit the marking in Nordenfjeldske regiment.

If we look at the 3. Sonnenfjeldske Regiment. V. Hedemarkske "might" fit the markings. H = Hedemarkse and "W" = Vestre(in old Norwegian writhen with an "W".) W for West.

The above is speculation based on the Norwegian Armys organization and how arms where marked in Norway. What does not fit is that it is not known "that/or/if" Sonnenfjeldske Regiment was issued the M 1773.

This contemporary painting below shows Carl Prins of Hessen up on the right side of the painting leading the army At Kvistum, north of Uddevalla:



Norwegian Dragons are taking the bridge on the left side in the painting. It would be "nice" to think that the Pallask above was there freuen

Wishfull thinking aside, I still think it is the most likley the "H" is for Holsten.

Norwegian markings usally looks a bit different. Here are some examples:





Is this how the two Pallask's with similar markings look ? (below)



If that is the case, the marking might very well be Norwegian. The Pallask above is an Norwegian modification of the M 1789 experimental Pallask called M 1808.

Geschrieben von: limone am: 14.09.09, 19:35:57
Thank you for this informations!

This "W" doesn't fit to any norwegian unit?

Are you sure, that it is "1013"? Maybe its "line O line 3" (a guesswork).

Zitat von Dragon:
Prins Carl of Hessen

I'm amazed every time, if I hear something about an "Hessen" - you find them in the history of several countries all over the world.

Best regards from Kassel (Hessen zwinkern )

Carsten

Geschrieben von: Dragon am: 14.09.09, 19:50:28
Zitat:
Thank you for this informations!

This "W" doesn't fit to any norwegian unit?

Are you sure, that it is "1013"? Maybe its "line O line 3" (a guesswork).


If you look at the three examples of Norwegian period Regimental markings above. The first letter is for the company name. The second letter is an "C" with an line in it. This stands for Company. The M 1772 pistols is therfore from:

S - C - N - 7 = Smålenske - Company - Number - 7, pistol pair 11

S - C - N - 74 = Smålenske - Company - Number - 74, Pistol pair 37

The Pallask M 1750/26: H : C : N : 7 = Hadelanske - Company - Number 7

The lettering and methology in Norwegian Regimental Markings is different from what we see on the M 1773 above. Just to complicate things: That does not totaly exclude that the Pallask could be Norwegian and then most likley what I suggest above based on Methology in Norwegian period markings and the organsization of the cavalry at the time.

Yes, those Hessians worked from the American revolution in the west to the Norwegian-Swedish wars in the North freuen
I think they where up to somthing with the Russians in the east as well ?

Geschrieben von: limone am: 14.09.09, 20:18:37
E.g. 1813 the cossacks (general Tschernischeff) freed Kassel - this was the end of the french kingdom Westphalen and Jérôme had to leave Kassel. Elector Wilhelm I., confederated with the prussians, came back. Later on, in 1866, Prussia annected the Electorate of "Hessen-Kassel"...

Geschrieben von: Henry Chr. am: 14.09.09, 21:56:12
I found the picture of the pallask marked H=W=No.24, and it looks like an emergency weapon M1808 for the danish Navy (or assembled by a collector)- the grib do not seem right.

You mentioned "pistol pair 11 and Pistol pair 37" for the M1772 flintlock pistols - are you shure - I believe, it is repair numbers, to avoid misk/mask when the pistols are in for service. These weapons are more or less made by hand, so the individual parts differs. Over the years I have seen a lot of these pistols, but I have never seen "repair" numbers higher than two ciffres.

Kind regards
Henry